The ethical science of Kathleen Lonsdale | 91TV
Transcript
- Maggie VO: 91TV was founded in 1660,
- and for the first 285 years
- it was a place exclusively for men.
- Finally, in 1945,
- Kathleen Lonsdale and Marjory Stephenson
- became the first two female Fellows.
- On the 80th anniversary of Kathleen Lonsdale’s election.
- I spent a day with astrophysicist
- Jocelyn Bell Burnell,
- herself a Fellow of the Royal Society,
- to discover more about Kathleen's life and work.
- Maggie: “Certificate of a Candidate for Election”.
- - It is an amazing list of signatures, isn't it?
- And wonderful that so many of these big names
- were prepared to step forward and support her nomination,
- and it suggests to me that male physicists
- aren't as conservative as I thought they were.
- And to think she came out of a
- very financially deprived background,
- actually in Ireland,
- ended up living in a small house in London,
- had problems getting to do science at school,
- had to go to the boys school
- where she was the only female,
- and somehow get the energy
- and enthusiasm to push to do the subject
- she knows she's good at.
- Lonsdale: I remember 50, nearly 50 years ago,
- my headmistress, who wanted me to become
- a mathematician, told me I was a perfect fool
- to want to take physics
- because it was a man's field.
- And with my lack of background and skill
- and knowledge, I couldn't hope to do well in it.
- - Hearing about your experiences at university,
- that doesn't sound like a lovely environment.
- - No, it wasn’t, it wasn't.
- I was greeted by 49 men whistling, catcalling,
- stamping, banging the desk.
- - Just horrendous.
- - That was as an undergraduate.
- It was less blatant, shall we say, later on.
- - But it's funny.
- As a Black, female scientist,
- less blatant is sometimes harder.
- - Yes.
- - Because I feel, you know, there's
- an undercurrent of things going on,
- which I don’t...
- and you can't put your finger on it.
- - And you wonder if you're paranoid.
- - Yeah, well that's it.
- So you reflect on yourself.
- Was it a challenge to get to university
- and be that lone woman?
- - It wasn't a challenge to get to university,
- to persist at university as the lone female
- took a certain amount
- of staying power, shall we say.
- I wonder how she found it.
- Maggie VO: Kathleen graduated in 1922
- with the highest marks in a physics paper
- of any student in a ten year period.
- This brought her to the attention
- of William Henry Bragg, who invited her
- to join his crystallography group.
- Lonsdale: Most people don't know
- what crystallography really means.
- It's a bad name in a sense,
- because they either think it has something to do
- with fortune telling, or else that it's
- some branch of theology.
- But what it really is is the study of solids.
- Mike: 60 years ago, this is where I was based.
- So this is taken with X-rays
- shining on a little crystal.
- The important thing is that the X-rays
- have a whole range of different wavelengths
- - Right.
- - All these spots come from
- the X-rays being scattered by the crystal.
- This is because it's multiple wavelengths.
- Much more complicated.
- But it does reveal all kinds of information
- about the crystal, provided you can understand them.
- This was something that she was a master at.
- Kathleen Lonsdale could look at this photograph
- and you could tell you the whole history of the crystal.
- Maggie VO: Kathleen Lansdale's biggest breakthrough
- was solving the structure of benzene.
- Mike: You can see where the atoms are.
- And now you can see the sixfold ring.
- - Yes!
- - And it’s flat.
- For chemists
- this was the most important discovery
- because if they’re flat, it changes your whole idea
- about bonding.
- - Right!
- - And that determines the whole chemistry
- of aromatic compounds.
- So every now and again, we would be asked
- to go upstairs to see Kathleen Lonsdale.
- We always used to say
- “we’re going to go and see God.”
- [laughter]
- Maggie: Did she like being called God?
- - We never called her that to her face.
- No, she was always Prof.
- - Ok, yes, but I suppose
- the first female professor at UCL.
- - That’s right, she was.
- - Were there any other women around?
- - There were many women here.
- - Really?
- Yes. Everybody in this group was equal.
- - Interesting.
- - Absolutely, it goes back: Kathleen Lonsdale was a
- a student of W.H. Bragg -
- W.H. Bragg was a very kind, shy man
- who encouraged women into science.
- So he had loads of women at a time...
- - ...when it wasn’t normally done. - Pity there aren’t more like him.
- Lonsdale: No person shall be refused admission
- to the laboratory as a worker
- or as an assistant to a worker
- by reason of his or her nationality or sex.
- I'm often asked why women have done so
- well in X-ray crystallography.
- I'm quite sure that it was due to the encouragement
- that Sir William Bragg gave them.
- - “My dear Mrs Lonsdale,
- I think your new result is perfectly delightful.”
- That’s Bragg!
- You don't often get that kind of praise, do you?
- - No! for some scientific achievements.
- - “Perfectly delightful”, I like that.
- - From the senior man, how wonderful.
- “I like to see the benzene ring emerging!”
- Maggie VO: in the 1930s and early 1940s,
- Kathleen Lonsdale was a key member of the world
- leading X-ray crystallography department
- set up by Bragg at the Royal Institution.
- It was a collection of brilliant scientists
- who worked together in an atmosphere
- of progressive open mindedness.
- They talked politics and played table tennis.
- Partners and children were welcomed into the lab,
- and the work produced
- there played a key role
- in some of the most important
- scientific discoveries of the 20th century.
- Jocelyn: So welcome to Friends House, Maggie.
- - Because you're a Quaker,
- just as Kathleen was as well.
- - That's right. Yes, I too am Quaker.
- - I love the idea that she was
- probably standing on that stage.
- - And it will have been absolutely packed.
- “I believe.
- These rather personal words are fundamental both
- to scientific research and to religious seeking.
- If we knew all the answers,
- there'd be no point in carrying
- out scientific research.
- Because we do not,
- it is stimulating, exciting, challenging.
- So too is the Christian life lived experimentally.”
- -Maggie: What do you think attracted Kathleen
- to become a Quaker when she was in her 30s?
- - I think it's openness, its lack of dogma.
- You're encouraged to be thinking
- and searching and trying to understand,
- but there isn't a set
- of beliefs that you have to subscribe to.
- - Sometimes I think people see a clash between
- religion and science.
- But actually that sounds quite scientific
- in the way you describe it.
- - Yes it is.
- And indeed, Quakers go even further.
- They don't tell you what to believe.
- They actually say, basically,
- work it out for yourself.
- Archive VO: This country is at war with Germany.
- Our nation has three safeguards against attack.
- We must have a fourth: civil defence.
- Maggie VO: When war broke out in 1939.
- Kathleen Lonsdale was required to register
- for Civil Defence duties in London.
- But as a conscientious objector, she refused.
- Jocelyn: “I claim absolute and unconditional exemption
- under the Armed Forces Act 1939.
- I believe that justice and security
- can never be attained by violent means.
- An end good in itself can never be reached
- by a method which involves the indiscriminate
- slaughter of guilty and innocent alike,
- which involves the starvation of children
- and the permanent injury of their minds and bodies.”
- Powerful stuff.
- Maggie: But she was doing the job anyway?
- Jocelyn: She was doing the job anyway,
- yes, just refused to sign the paperwork
- because that implied
- acceptance of the military authority, I suspect.
- She had young family at that time.
- A very supportive husband, but also young family.
- And so it must have been quite
- a difficult decision for her
- to take
- the course of action
- she did, knowing that she might end up in prison.
- And how typical.
- You know, she's in prison. It’s horrific.
- So she decides to do something about it.
- She became a prison reformer
- as well as everything else.
- Yes. It's great
- Archive VO: the check at the gate are not mere routine.
- This was the headquarters of the man who designed the bomb.,
- Sir William Penny,
- the only British scientist at the atom
- bombing of Nagasaki
- Maggie VO: From the end of the Second World War
- until the end of her life, Kathleen Lonsdale
- devoted much of her time to prison reform
- and encouraging scientists
- to consider the ethical dimension of their work.
- Jocelyn: “Many scientists are having to think
- pretty deeply today about the implications
- of their work, and about its ethical significance.
- They are, of course,
- frequently blamed for their part
- in the construction of atomic weapons.
- Scientists, moreover, are finding that
- they have influence outside their own subjects
- and that they are listened to particularly,
- perhaps, when they talk about ethics.”
- Wow!
- - Yes.
- - When did we get training in that?
- - Er... although I think nowadays they do.
- - Right.
- - When I was at university, it wasn't really discussed.
- Maggie: When I left university with my PhD from Imperial,
- there weren't any jobs around.
- And the first job I got was actually with the M.O.D.
- - Oh, right. Yes, yes.
- And it was a decision
- that I had to sort of grapple with.
- - Indeed.
- And I wanted to make sure
- that I was going to do things
- that would sort of aid people,
- missile warning systems or landmine detection.
- But you don't always have that choice.
- And there could have come
- a point where they might say,
- they want me to do something aggressive.
- And I hope I would have walked away.
- - It is difficult, isn't it?
- As physicists, we learn all sorts of things
- that could be useful to military.
- As it is, it's just left to individual responsibility.
- And I’d certainly have issues with doing work
- that I thought could be used to damage people.
- Archive VO: The Montebello bomb and all the equipment for
- this experiment were made
- in British workshops by British workmen,
- but they would never see the finished product,
- never even know perhaps the ultimate
- function of the parts they handled with such care.
- BBC interviewer: But you married and brought up three children
- as well as having a full time job.
- now how did you do it?
- Lonsdale: Well, certainly one thing is that I married the right man.
- I have had a husband who has helped me
- in every way,
- particularly, of course, when things got difficult
- and he encouraged me to go on with my work.
- Jocelyn: I never met her, but I met her husband
- and he was remarkable as well.
- He liberated her from domestic duties.
- He made sure there was food in the house.
- He gave the children their tea.
- He made sure they got off to school,
- and it enabled her to travel, to go to conferences,
- to keep working and to do the splendid work she did.
- Interviewer: Dame Kathleen, forgive me for saying this,
- but to look at one might think that you're rather a frail person,
- and yet you said that you work 16 hours a day.
- What's your timetable?
- -Lonsdale: Well, I don't need a great deal of sleep.
- I wake up naturally, rather early in the morning.
- I begin work, usually at 3 or 4 a.m.
- and do written theoretical work until about six.
- Then I leave home about half past six
- and get to college at a quarter to nine.
- - A phenomenal woman.
- - Yes.
- - I wish I'd heard about her earlier,
- because I'm a science communicator,
- I go to sort of champion role models
- but I wasn't really aware of her work.
- - I don't think I had any female role models,
- there just weren't.
- - Yes, they weren’t available.
- My role models were mainly sort of people
- from Star Trek.
- [laughter]
- people like Lieutenant Uhura.
- So fictional characters.
- - Yes.
- - But, actually, well,
- I didn't hear about you early on in my career,
- but when I did hear about you,
- you were definitely a role model for me.
- So thank you.
- - Well, thank you.
- Interviewer: What do you feel should be
- the role of the scientist in Britain today?
- -Lonsdale: Well, I'm sure that scientists should take an interest
- in national and international affairs.
- not as politicians, but
- in making sure that facts are properly known.
- And in trying to ensure that science is used
- for good and not for evil purposes.
- I really have wanted to do as much good as I could in the world.
Dame Maggie Aderin-Pocock and Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell FRS join forces to uncover the life and legacy of Kathleen Lonsdale, who spent her career delving deep into the structure of crystals.
Featuring Professor Mike Glazer, Kathleen Lonsdale’s former student.
Find more about the Royal Society's work supporting and celebrating Women in STEM /news-resources/women-in-stem/
Directed by Peter Mann, produced by Spirited Pictures.
Thanks to the kind participation of University College London Department of Earth Sciences and Special Collections, The Royal Institution, Friends House, Department of Physics - University of Oxford, The Science Museum, The International Union of Crystallography, the Imperial War Museum and BBC Archives
Special thanks to: Stephen Lonsdale, Katy Makin, Sarah Aichison, Dr Katy Duncan, Charlotte New, Robert Davies, Professor Ian Wood, Leisa Clemente, Libby Adams, Cato Pedder, Sou Manhsinh, Katy Dabin, Peter Dickinson, Keith Moore, Olivia Ibbotson, Mike Lucibella, Andrew Martin
Archive:
UCL Special Collections
The Royal Institution
91TV
The Imperial War Museum
Ian Wood - UCL
BBC Archives
The International Union of Crystallography
“Photograph by Lotte Meitner-Graf (1898-1973) ©The Lotte Meitner-Graf Archive”
About the Royal Society
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